Here's a wishlist I made when Legacy was about to come out, what I actually wanted from Legacy.
Actually, this .txt I found from back then which is an archive of some forum thread(s) that are gone now.
Keep in mind, I was still trying to give EoCers their own option to stay as well back in the Legacy release days, which I really care about less now that EoC is dying on its own.
Good community trumps ad-hoc attempts to fix game balance.
Also note that this post will be extremely unformatted until I work on it some more, it's copy pasted from the Runescape forum.
------------------============[Main Proposal]============------------------
Old HP/Armour system
Old Inventory & Prayer Sprites
Old special attacks
138 maxed combat, tweaked to make range/mage count more (pretty much already in effect)
Staff + Shield
Old Ancients/God spells
Old style weapon stats. Magic, ranged, stab, slash, crush, strength. Instead of whatever the heck EoC armour/weapons are now.
Stab/Slash/Crush/Defend | Quick/Accurate/Long | Mage/Mage+Def attack styles.
Poisoned weapons
Dominion Tower gloves (Especially Goliath - Give spellcaster its own spell like the polypore staff).
Same player saves (no need to restart completely like for 07RS)
Make the action bar optional for skilling only.
Here's the big part:
Re-stat the 2013 items to be like the old system, keep the re-balanced gear
Keep dual wielding (just don't make it OP or more viable than everything else)
Old models, and more importantly - animations
Edit: I underestimated how much I dislike the new models. I just logged in and yeah, I'd really like to see Jagex remake them to appear like the old models some day.
Optional:
100% prayer protection.
Sara brews, or rather, an alternative to"stacked healing items"
Other stuff to keep from the EoC:
Food/Potion Balancing.
-----
"But the old models don't support new animations from solomon or dual wielding"
Jagex was able to make completely new models that support being animated in more ways than in the past. They can definitely make new models that mimick the old ones, but use the new animation system. From this point, they could make it a cosmetic choice as to how your player is animated while it walks/attacks things. I think the old animations are funny/nostalgic and would still use them. Doing this would also mean less work needed to keep new emotes/animation overrides.
I do agree that this is a lot of work. But making EoC in the first place was a lot of work and not a lot of paying attention to how much players approve of it.
Edit: At least make old animations over the new models an option as an animation override.
"But Jagex can't bring back the old stats or system"
They were able to completely change them to something new, they most definitely can bring them back. Even if they don't have the stats recorded, they can re-implement the old system.
Considering they were able to re-instate 07RS, I'm fairly certain that they do have a save of the game from what it was like pre-EoC, as well as all of the item stats.
"Dual wielding sucks and doesn't fit Legacy and thus shouldn't be part of it"
Let's say EoC was never a thing, and Jagex just decided to release dual wielding on its own. Would you feel the same way? Let's assume it gets released to be just as viable as sword+shield or 2h or something.
IMO, they should make off-hand weapons not be offhand, and just let you choose what hand to hold it in. At the same time, allow shields to be carried in the other hand.
My suggestion for dual wields in pre-EoC combat is to make them like darts. Weaker hits but faster. Unlike darts, they'd probably be less accurate too.
"But Legacy is worthless, EoC is superior"
Opinions have little bearing in a discussion, especially with the results of the survey Jagex quoted saying otherwise.
Not to mention, the goal of this suggestion is to bring back Legacy with the main goal of the EoC to rebalance the combat triangle.
(In my opinion, old combat was more exciting/faster in terms of PvP).
"But your idea is basically throwing away the EoC"
My suggestion is not saying EoC should be completely removed, Jagex would still provide the option to use abilities and RS3 animations if you want.
Though, the main thing I don't care about seeing stay are abilities and the new form of armour stats.
As suggested, a choice between RS2 and RS3 animations would help a lot. And with Legacy, Jagex is already giving you the choice between old/new damage scaling and hitsplats.
Abilities do not require the new form of item stats in any way, nor does rebalancing the classes in the game. This can be done with math alone.
If my idea sounds still sounds like it's "throwing away EoC", please post and tell me how so I can think of a way to satisfy both sides better.
Actually, this .txt I found from back then which is an archive of some forum thread(s) that are gone now.
Keep in mind, I was still trying to give EoCers their own option to stay as well back in the Legacy release days, which I really care about less now that EoC is dying on its own.
Good community trumps ad-hoc attempts to fix game balance.
Also note that this post will be extremely unformatted until I work on it some more, it's copy pasted from the Runescape forum.
------------------============[Main Proposal]============------------------
Old HP/Armour system
Old Inventory & Prayer Sprites
Old special attacks
138 maxed combat, tweaked to make range/mage count more (pretty much already in effect)
Staff + Shield
Old Ancients/God spells
Old style weapon stats. Magic, ranged, stab, slash, crush, strength. Instead of whatever the heck EoC armour/weapons are now.
Stab/Slash/Crush/Defend | Quick/Accurate/Long | Mage/Mage+Def attack styles.
Poisoned weapons
Dominion Tower gloves (Especially Goliath - Give spellcaster its own spell like the polypore staff).
Same player saves (no need to restart completely like for 07RS)
Make the action bar optional for skilling only.
Here's the big part:
Re-stat the 2013 items to be like the old system, keep the re-balanced gear
Keep dual wielding (just don't make it OP or more viable than everything else)
Old models, and more importantly - animations
Edit: I underestimated how much I dislike the new models. I just logged in and yeah, I'd really like to see Jagex remake them to appear like the old models some day.
Optional:
100% prayer protection.
Sara brews, or rather, an alternative to"stacked healing items"
Other stuff to keep from the EoC:
Food/Potion Balancing.
-----
"But the old models don't support new animations from solomon or dual wielding"
Jagex was able to make completely new models that support being animated in more ways than in the past. They can definitely make new models that mimick the old ones, but use the new animation system. From this point, they could make it a cosmetic choice as to how your player is animated while it walks/attacks things. I think the old animations are funny/nostalgic and would still use them. Doing this would also mean less work needed to keep new emotes/animation overrides.
I do agree that this is a lot of work. But making EoC in the first place was a lot of work and not a lot of paying attention to how much players approve of it.
Edit: At least make old animations over the new models an option as an animation override.
"But Jagex can't bring back the old stats or system"
They were able to completely change them to something new, they most definitely can bring them back. Even if they don't have the stats recorded, they can re-implement the old system.
Considering they were able to re-instate 07RS, I'm fairly certain that they do have a save of the game from what it was like pre-EoC, as well as all of the item stats.
"Dual wielding sucks and doesn't fit Legacy and thus shouldn't be part of it"
Let's say EoC was never a thing, and Jagex just decided to release dual wielding on its own. Would you feel the same way? Let's assume it gets released to be just as viable as sword+shield or 2h or something.
IMO, they should make off-hand weapons not be offhand, and just let you choose what hand to hold it in. At the same time, allow shields to be carried in the other hand.
My suggestion for dual wields in pre-EoC combat is to make them like darts. Weaker hits but faster. Unlike darts, they'd probably be less accurate too.
"But Legacy is worthless, EoC is superior"
Opinions have little bearing in a discussion, especially with the results of the survey Jagex quoted saying otherwise.
Not to mention, the goal of this suggestion is to bring back Legacy with the main goal of the EoC to rebalance the combat triangle.
(In my opinion, old combat was more exciting/faster in terms of PvP).
"But your idea is basically throwing away the EoC"
My suggestion is not saying EoC should be completely removed, Jagex would still provide the option to use abilities and RS3 animations if you want.
Though, the main thing I don't care about seeing stay are abilities and the new form of armour stats.
As suggested, a choice between RS2 and RS3 animations would help a lot. And with Legacy, Jagex is already giving you the choice between old/new damage scaling and hitsplats.
Abilities do not require the new form of item stats in any way, nor does rebalancing the classes in the game. This can be done with math alone.
If my idea sounds still sounds like it's "throwing away EoC", please post and tell me how so I can think of a way to satisfy both sides better.
-----
The EoC isn't a superior system if it has less than half of the player base enjoying it. The best way to run a game business is to release content that players agree with and enjoy.
So far there are two huge things that Jagex forced onto us that players largely didn't like. Squeal of Fortune, and the EoC. (Note: Just because you like it, or it does address some issues, doesn't mean it's perfect or even better).
Imagine if things went a different way:
What if they didn't release abilities, change the interface, change models/animations when they came up with "the EoC".
What if the big update was just the introduction of dual wielding, shield bows, wands, more books, more armour for mage/range, and the buffing of ranged/mage so that you can use both just as commonly as melee used to be in the game? Along with mage/range armour being rebalanced to have better defence (mage armour being made a little better against melee I guess).
In other words, all they did, was release a ton of new items at once in a way that completely changes the balancing of the combat triangle to be how they wanted it be?
Make runes easier to obtain or spells cost less runes. Arrows too.
----
If the EoC had gone down that way, a lot less people would have left the game because it's essentially still the old system. The only difference is that other parts of the combat triangle would be more widely useable. You aren't stuck with using melee for 90% of everything because ranged and even mage are almost just as affordable.
I feel as if that would have kept many of the game's veterans while addressing the real issue Jagex was trying to tackle with the EoC.
You'd still have all the PvP gimmicks, interface people prefered, etc etc. The wilderness might seem crazy at first and people would say mage/range is overpowered until it comes to the point where it's actually an even mix of people using whatever part of the triangle they want. You'd still have hybridding as it used to be as well.
What makes the game go backwards are how the business decides to implement things and the player's satisfaction rate. EoC was too huge of a change and too different. I was a very loyal member and even continued paying during half a year long absences because I was supporting a game I knew I'd always come back to. Ever since the EoC came out, it was like they closed the game so I stopped paying and lost the $5 membership I had from so long ago.
Also, 200 wasn't good for how it hid stats. It's nice to see the new formula brings mage/range higher now that they're more prominent in the combat triangle. I would still much prefer that the game was just updated with a bunch of armour/weapon changes. I do agree that it'd be easier to make sense of if the level cap was 140 or 145, but that just doesn't really fit Runescape well. Weird numbers are interesting to this playerbase.
-----
Basically, the only thing that was needed to rebalance damage between classes was to change numbers and fill some gaps with items for mage/range.
The animations of the game are a completely different problem.
"Old animations are boring and shouldn't be supported!"
Yea, a lot of people thought the old animations were slow paced, unexciting, or boring. In a similar way, the old system of combat felt that way.
However, I do not think that a need for newer/better animations warranted the introduction of abilities. But for fixing the "pace" of combat, who knows. The polls already indicated that abilities weren't a better alternative. This is why Jagex is making Legacy in the first place.
Personally, the old system of combat was faster paced for me, especially with hybridding in PvP. Though agreeably PvM was afky, I preferred that. Though bossing was also fast paced/exciting cause I only got to level 109+10 pre-EoC so it was hard enough to solo GWD stuff. EoC didn't introduce faster paced combat and only an annoying need for button spam for me.
Not to mention, as suggested before, make the animations optional.
In any case, I agree with Coli's feedback thread about Revolution.
QFC: 360-361-249-65280878-92-329782912 | 10.3 - Revolution
If we end up needing an ability macro, it means that the system has failed.
-----
I notice some EoC supporters saying to just scratch Legacy. Don't offer it at all.
I kinda consider these to be troll posts.
As much as I'd like EoC to be completely scratched, Jagex already introduced it and some people have already grown to like it. The community is split half and half and we can't just completely throw away either one. We already saw what happened due to Jagex throwing away the old system before considering to bring it back in some ways now.
I'm trying to think of what to say in terms of keeping abilities. I guess I'd say it'd be like what Jagex has already promised for Legacy where you can choose between the two systems. But rather than EoC being the "main system", EoC becomes the "dressed up system" that needs to become compatible with Legacy. Not Legacy becoming compatible with the Eoc.
In terms of bossing, I'm not sure why Jagex thinks abilities are important to making fresh/new boss ideas.
I can already think of boss gimmicks they haven't/have hardly used. For example, breakable parts on bosses. Make a huge boss with different sections that can be attacked and broken separately to reveal weaker parts. At least, make more bosses like that than that one tzhaar mole/armadillo thing. Make stuff like Vanstrom even.
Speaking of Vanstrom, put him in the Dominion Tower.
-----
Miscellaneous Threads I support:
QFC: 355-356-981-65284809 - EoC is not EoC
- One point he mentions is that crits do not suffice to replace mage/strength bonuses. If Legacy could be made like I suggest in this thread, I think that would suffice.
- I'm also in support of pretty much all of his suggestions.
QFC: 355-356-156-65288904 - LegacyCombat - Dress up of EoC
- I agree that I want to see more be done and that I'm worried that it will feel like Jagex trying to dress up momentum and say it's bringing back old combat. The old animations were also a large part of the feel of old combat to me.
QFC: 15-16-593-65345051 - New prayer icons + Legacy?
- Not only do I prefer how they were pixelated before, but they're also more crisp/easier to tell apart. The new ones look like purple blurs and I actually have to look closely to tell if I'm using protect from melee or ranged which is annoying.
It also does not make sense for the activation of deflect curses to play the animation of you actually deflecting attack, when that is not even happening. I disliked that addition. Same thing for the activation animations added to sap/etc.
QFC: 355-356-53-65340350 - Legacy details
- Please, please do something about the animations when you implement Legacy, even if you don't do the whole re-statting thing I suggested.
QFC: 360-361-621-65287493 - Old animations, Legacy Combat
Second reply in the thread: "Make old animations available in Solomon store"
But for free.
QFC: 299-300-79-65346970 - What we want in Legacy
- "Strength skill matter again". I don't actually know how badly EoC changed that, but I definitely want to see it matter. I saw a suggestion to make it count towards mage/range, which sounds OK. Make it universal like defense.
- See next page for dual wield idea.
QFC: 16-17-258-65347893 - Legacy - PvP revival
QFC: 16-17-733-65348060 - My thouhts on legacy
-----
--------------------============[Disclaimer]============--------------------
I know Legacy is meant to bring the old combat system back but not a copy of Runescape like it was pre-EoC.
I know Jagex hasn't even opened that beta yet, but I know they're working on it and can't wait to see if it's done adequately or not.
I know they stated they won't bring back old item stats. I can still hope. This is what I was saying in 2014. Now it's 2016.
One of the things that worries me most about Legacy are the animations which as I've said, were a big part of the pre-EoC feel to me, as well as that interface switching and hybridding stuff.
Other than that, was also the impact of things like your 'max hit' and every individual hits. I believe I linked a thread talking about that as well. It's not just EoC's hitsplats are bad, but the feel of them is too because it turns everything more into the concept of "DPSing" and "spread out/damage over time" even for normal attacks.
Compared to Runescape where you can feel the weight of every hit more. It's hard to explain I suppose and you'd either get it or not. One good example was the feel of using special attacks. This is my other big worry as to how Legacy will be. Pre-EoC you felt heavy and powerful. RS3 makes me feel like darts, which is a bad restriction to me. Whether I'm using a 2H, sword/shield, or dual wield, nothing feels like it has impact.
I think mostly the hitsplats/damage amounts/animations are to blame largely for that. 2H swords used to feel heavy. As well as mauls. Making them use the same animation, as well as the animations themselves, just makes both feel weak.
Prayer feels less powerful. I can't "feel" the bonus of turmoil or piety at all anymore for example. It doesn't increase that impact feel anymore in the EoC. I've seen others complain that large 1k-9k hits contributes to this loss of impact. Level 85-99 str is a pointless blur.
-----
I eagerly await to see what Legacy will be like and whether it'll be satisfying, and to give feedback to hopefully get it as close to something I can enjoy again as possible.
Proposal for Legacy dual wields:
It'd certainly be nice to keep, but we want shields to still have their usage and other stuff have trade-offs.
As mentioned by QFC: 299-300-79-65346970 Xader_Master:
- Dual wielding would add 1/4 str bonus and work like defenders
(Dragon Scimitar: Str Bonus = 66 + Off hand Dragon Scimitar = 16.5)
My suggestion:
- Overall accuracy drops significantly, but you attack as fast as darts. Your max hit is also penalized.
Magic "dual wielding" is unnecessary altogether imo. Just make mage books be for offensive bonuses like before and give them rune-saving capabilities or other special abilities.
For dart-like cast speed, just release cool new spells or something like the staff of armadyl that affects cast speed with some sort of magic penalty like -40% magic modifier to counter the cast speed. Or rather, make wands become the fast cast speed type weapon, while keeping staves single handed.
And don't allow multi-class dualwielding to be effective. Like having a sword and crossbow. They should negate each other's effectiveness.
Also instead of off-hands, we could just decide what hand to wield something in.
Personally, I would limit dual wielding to melee. Rangers don't really need it either, unless Jagex some day releases flat out guns.
Melee's already had one dual wield for years pretty much... Torag's hammers.
Also instead of off-hands, we could just decide what hand to wield something in.
Personally, I would limit dual wielding to melee. Rangers don't really need it either, unless Jagex some day releases flat out guns.
Melee's already had one dual wield for years pretty much... Torag's hammers.
Proposal for Legacy action bar:
Legacy users don't like abilities, but that doesn't mean everyone will dislike having an action bar type thing for skilling.
Two immediate options come to mind:
1. Allow the action bar to be toggled on/off (off meaning, completely hidden - no enable button visible on screen or something) and only useable for skilling.
2. Just allow hotkeys to be bound to items in the inventory and give the option for the inventory to be like a cross between the action bar and an inventory.
3. Both of the above would be a nice way to satisfy people in the middle of EoC and Legacy.
-----
http://services.runescape.com/m=rswiki/en/Maximum_Hit_Formula
Expand pre-EoC soaking as a part of defence, or a combination of defence and HP (like melee was a combination of atk and str).
Having high HP gives you some inherent soaking.
Having high DEF gives you static defence bonuses and also contributes to inherent soaking.
EoC players have a max of 9900 HP and pre-EoC have 990. Higher defence leading to the bigger portion of soaking or something.
Let's say have level 50 HP gives 5% soaking. In Legacy terms, it's like you're actually scaling your health to be...
500 x 1.05 = 525 "total health".
In other words, if you have 500 HP and 5% inherent soaking, you would have to be hit for 525 to get one hit KOed. Hitting 500 will be soaked to 475 and the player survives with 25 hp.
This can be used to introduce balancing that protects players in pre-EoC from new 90 level+ gear, depending on what soaking values Jagex implements.
As I mentioned on my legacy thread I was going to look at pre-EoC damage calculation and try and come up with stuff from there. I hear one problem of level 90 pre-EoC weapons was that you'd be able to one-hit people, and DPS rates would be too high. All it takes to fix that is some equivalent scaling of HP/DEF with higher level weapons.
Commonly used abbreviations:
RSC = Runescape Classic
07RS = OSRS/Oldschool Runescape
RS2 = Pre-EoC Runescape
RS3 = Post-EoC Runescape, before Legacy
Legacy = Combined RS2+RS3, EoC/RS3 bias on updates/balance/features/viability
RSFIX = My proposal = Combined RS2+RS3, looks like RS2 but has many of RS3's item/combat rebalancing, similar to Legacy but with RS2 bias, RS3 being the "optional skin, though more effective due to abilities"
Classes = Melee/Range/Mage
Old system = Combat system in RS2
New system = EoC system / Combat system in RS3
Fixed system = My proposal
"But changing stats isn't really necessary"
It's true that you can balance things both ways.
This thread is basically taking aspects of the EoC I didn't dislike and applying it to RS2, though some aspects like this are ones that I could probably tolerate.
Changing the stats on equippables is only a small part of "changing stats".
The bigger picture is changing how the EoC put more emphasis on gear than your actual player stats. (I would like confirmation that this is the case, because it's what I heard from the like/dislikes of EoC thread I made). Or in other words, it's like reverting to RS2 and balancing the old combat system instead of changing to a new combat system.
Here are the balancing differences between RS2 and RS2.
RS2:
Stab/Slash/Crush/Range/Mage Atk+Def & prayer/summoning/mage%/str stats on equippables.
Melee had Accurate/Aggresive/Controlled/Defensive.
The difference was what skills you get EXP in, aggresive commonly being the best option ignoring EXP.
Range had Accurate, Rapid, and Defensive.
Rapid was commonly the best option, ignoring EXP.
Mage had Normal and Defensive casting. Normal giving mage exp only and defensive giving Mage+Def EXP.
Normal was commonly the best option.
These best options had the problem of making other options pointless/unused.
Melee weapons had additional depth relating to their Stab/Slash/Crush stats.
Mage armour: Worst defense stats against anything (generally). I believe their highest def stat was against mage itself.
Range armour: Best defense against mage. Average against melee and I believe it was weak/average against ranged.
Melee armour: Best defense against melee and ranged. Generally negative against magic.
PvP generally balanced, with some overpowered things regarding high level content.
PvM was melee biased. It was simply no cost over time to use a sword for stuff like slayer, compared to consuming arrows and especially runes.
RS3:
I really need to read up on what it was changed to.
Please correct me (I'm probably remembering wrong).
For equippables:
An atk/def stat.
Armour type (strong/neutral/weak against XYZ class)
Crits for melee/mage/range
Stab/Slash/Crush became enemy weaknesses in PvM or something. I'm not sure how it's different than RS2. Maybe it's not.
Stab/Slash/Crush became independent from Accurate/Aggresive/Controlled/Defensive.
The stats you gain EXP in became independent of both of those as well.
Mage made elemental weakness more apparent, similarly to stab/slash/crush. Air/Water/Earth/Fire.
Or something like that? All I remember is that Jagex added a bunch of weaknesses to monsters for PvM across the world.
They also made ancients elemental and removed some other god spells, until recently.
Not sure how it worked with ranged.
They also introduced dual wield / sword+shield / 2h as a standard for all classes (homogenization).
Dual wield/2H were stated to produce the same DPS during the beta, thus were an aesthetic choice. Sword+Shield was meant to be for tanks.
Looking at some recent threads, I hear that it's become the case that specific abilities have become optimal for certain reasons that introduces an undesireable bias towards them.
Effective stats of weapons are based on the equip requirements, or tier of the item.
I keep hearing that strength was especially hit hard. Enough that some people quoted "removing the skill".
It's kind of hard to sum up what the EoC changes, when it is a work in progress in itself.
Goals of the EoC:
Promote "Combat Triangle"
Balance classes
Remove "Melee Bias" (mostly a PvM issue)
Make combat "less boring/stale"
I personally dislike the homogenization of the classes. E.g. I like being able to achieve an arcane necklace or korasi sword and have it be viable everywhere even when I'm maxed. I liked the differences between classes in RS2.
Example comparison:
RS3 armour all became like RS2's minigame hybrid armour.
Damage rates between classes were made near-identical.
Damage increase primarily comes from tiers of gear instead of skills.
Armour has its own HP attached to it.
Balancing classes lost the old variety inherent to classes.
Seemingly, they're trying to revive/release hybridding stuff.
What I aim to do is all of the following:
1. "Revert" the game to RS2
2. Keep RS3 items, such as level 90 gear that would be OP in RS2
3. Keep RS3 class rebalancing, especially for PvM
4. Address PvP issues from RS2
Stat comparison RS2 vs RS3
Full rune armour:
Full mystic armour:
Full black dhide:
Full bandos:
Full armadyl:
Full Pernix:
Full Torva:
Full Virtus:
Full Battlemage:
Full Trickster:
Full Vanguard:
Dragon scimitar:
Whip: http://runescape.wikia.com/wiki/Abyssal_whip
Korasi sword: http://runescape.wikia.com/wiki/Korasi%27s_sword
Chaotic maul: http://runescape.wikia.com/wiki/Chaotic_maul
Chaotic rapier: http://runescape.wikia.com/wiki/Chaotic_Rapier
CHaotic longsword: http://runescape.wikia.com/wiki/Chaotic_longsword
Saradomin Sword: http://runescape.wikia.com/wiki/Saradomin_Sword
Godsword: http://runescape.wikia.com/wiki/Godsword
Barrelchest anchor: http://runescape.wikia.com/wiki/Barrelchest_anchor
Magic shortbow:
Magic longbow:
Crossbow:
Mystic staff: http://runescape.wikia.com/wiki/Mystic_staves
Staff of light: http://runescape.wikia.com/wiki/Staff_of_Light
Ancient staff: http://runescape.wikia.com/wiki/Ancient_staff
RS3 items as if they were in RS2:
Adamant longsword: lv.40
Style: slash
Dmg: 490
Acc: 628
Stab: 20
Slash: 29
Strength: 31
Rune longsword: lv.50
Style: Slash
Dmg: 612
Acc: 850
Stab: 38
Slash: 47
Strength: 49
+18
+18
+18
Dragon longsword: lv.60
Style: Slash
Dmg: 735
Acc: 1132
Stab: 58
Slash: 69
Strength: 71
+20
+22
+22
+38
+40
+40
Chaotic longsword: lv.80
Style: Slash
Dmg: 980
Acc: 1924
Stab: 107
Slash: 124
Strength: 120
+49 23 + 26
+55 26 + 29
+49 23 + 26
Drygore longsword: lv.90
Style: Slash
Dmg: 1102
Acc: 2458
Stab: 137
Slash: 154
Strength: 154
+30
+30
+34
HP*(1-(DEF/100))
Suggestions that could just be implemented in Legacy.
Spell costs:......|RS2..................................|RS3.............|
------------------|-------------------------------------|----------------|
Air strike |1 air, 1 mind |1 air...........| This was eventually changed to 1 air for RS2 as well
Water strike |1 air, 1 mind, 1 water |1 air, 1 water
Air surge |7 air, 1 death, 1 blood |5 air
Water surge |7 air, 10 water, 1 death, 1 blood |5 air, 5 water
Fire surge |7 air, 10 fire, 1 death, 1 blood |5 air, 5 fire
Smoke rush |1 air, 1 fire, 2 chaos, 2 death |3 air, 1 death
Smoke barrage |4 air, 4 fire, 2 blood, 4 death |5 air, 2 blood
Blood rush |1 blood, 2 chaos, 2 death |3 fire, 1 death
Blood barrage |4 blood, 4 death |5 fire, 2 blood
Ice rush |2 water, 2 chaos, 2 death |3 water, 1 death
Ice barrage |6 water, 2 blood, 4 death |5 water, 2 blood
Applying this to RS2 would have really highlighted how OP ancients can be due to making them much more common.
Price and the work needed to unlock it are not always an adequate excuse for something to be extremely powerful against other stuff.
So what would have to be done to balance these being more widespread?
????The change to defence and soaking should help.
And for people who like to use special attacks as KO weapons, we can do something like decreasing how much the opponent gets to soak from special attacks.
For example, take the attacker's attack level into the equation.
99ATK+99STR vs 99HP+99DEF
990 HP, soak 33% from dmg >= (990*0.01 + floor(ATKLVL*1.5) = 158)
200+100+50+50=400 | 42+0+0+0 * 0.66 = 28+0+0+0 | 186+100+50+50=386
308+154+87+77=626 | 150+0+0+0 * 0.66 = 99+0+0+0 | 257+154+87+77=575
400+200+100+100=800 | 342+42+0+0 * 0.66 = 226+28+0+0 | 384+186+100+100=770
640+320+160+160=1280 | 482+162+2+2 * 0.66 = 318+107+1+1 | 476+265+159+159=1059
We could also do ATKLVL*2 and it'd be near a 200 minimum like before.
Well the old stats looked like this:
CLS:
-Offense-
Stab: 107
Slash: 124
Crush: -2 (boy do I miss flowers)
Magic: 0
Range: 0
-Defense-
Stab: 0
Slash: 0
Crush: 0
Magic: 0
Range: 0
Summoning: 0
-Soak-
Melee: 0%
Range: 0%
Mage: 0%
-Other-
Prayer: 0
Strength: 120
Ranged Strength: 0
Mage %: 0
I agree EoC does simplify it in a good way, aside from creating completely new stats for everything.
Class: Melee
Style: Slash
Damage: 980
Accuracy: 1924
Armour: 0
Life: 0
Prayer: 0
Crit melee: 0%
Crit range: 0%
Crit mage: 0%
I think I'm going to need to login again to confirm how the new system works, but iirc from beta your class is determined by your most prominent armour... or weapon combo? Or something. Your defense against other classes was based on the combat triangle.
They could do what you just mentioned, and if we're really lucky, scale down numbers anyway lolo.
I'm not sure how true this statement is, but EoC beta made it feel like you can't mix and match without ruining things. I think that's one thing I miss a lot about the old system. You could wear full black dhide but melee in it. Whereas (at least in beta), wearing black dhide made your class ranger or something and wasn't synonymous with your melee weapon. I'm not really sure what it's like now.
RS2:
Melee armour gave no offensive stats and great melee/range def. Melee weapon offense was pretty high anyway.
Mage armour gave mage offensive stats and really weak defense in general.
Range armour gave range offense and average melee and strong mage defense.
RS3 (at time of beta at least):
All armour became something like the RS2 minigame hybrid armour and decided your class. Weak to one other class, neutral to the same class, and effective against the last class. No armour had offensive bonuses.
Or something like that. I'll go look up what the system is like now cause I completely forgot lol.
I suppose if what I remember is correct, I want to remove how EoC does classing. As far as I can tell, I guess this hybrid update in this beta is meant to address that or something.
Back to damage soaking:
Constitution not only increases HP, but also increases a certain amount of damage you can soak.
Defense increases your buffer zone for soaking. At level 1 defence, only hits greater than 99% of your HP will be soaked. At level 99 def, hits greater than 1% get soaked.
I think a max of ~33% soaking is a fair standard.
So you can soak HPLVL/3.
10 HP
1 DEF
100HP, soak 3% from dmg >= 99
50 HP
1 DEF
500 HP, soak 17% from dmg >= (500*0.99 = 495)
500 dmg, 5 dmg gets soaked by 17% (=4.15). Becomes 499 dmg.
50 HP
50 DEF
500 HP, soak 17% from dmg >= (500*0.5 = 250)
Take 100 dmg, 0 is eligible for soaking.
Take 500 dmg, 250 is soaked 17%. 250*0.83=207.5 | Dmg taken = 458
Take 990 dmg, 740*0.83=614.2 | Dmg taken = 864 (you died anyway)
99 HP
99 DEF
990 HP, soak 33% from dmg >= (990*0.01 = 10)
Take 100 dmg, 90 is soaked 33%. 90*0.66=59.4 | Dmg taken = 69
Take 500 dmg, 490*0.66=323.4 | Dmg taken = 333
Take 990 dmg, 980*0.66=646.8 | Dmg taken = 657
And for people who like to use special attacks as KO weapons, we can do something like decreasing how much the opponent gets to soak from special attacks.
For example, take the attacker's attack level into the equation.
99ATK+99STR vs 99HP+99DEF
990 HP, soak 33% from dmg >= (990*0.01 + floor(ATKLVL*1.5) = 158)
200+100+50+50=400 | 42+0+0+0 * 0.66 = 28+0+0+0 | 186+100+50+50=386
308+154+87+77=626 | 150+0+0+0 * 0.66 = 99+0+0+0 | 257+154+87+77=575
400+200+100+100=800 | 342+42+0+0 * 0.66 = 226+28+0+0 | 384+186+100+100=770
640+320+160+160=1280 | 482+162+2+2 * 0.66 = 318+107+1+1 | 476+265+159+159=1059
This achieves the EoC goal of making defense important, but you can still have pures if you want. Of course they'll still be many ways less effective than true mains.
Additionally, you can remove soaking from armor to clean up pre-EoC's stat interface a little.
Ranged would need more special attacks probably.
Magic is already pretty devastating in PvP.
Dunno if it really needs its own form of special attacks when you can use ancients and whatnot.
Eh, there was still combat triangle in RS2. But it came more in the form of hybridding in terms of PvP. You'd be at a disadvantage sticking to one class. That's one of the things bigger things I enjoyed about the old system, now that I think of it. Most of what I was doing before I quit was playing minigames in the hybrid armour and switching either between two or all three styles.
That's one huge thing that this Legacy won't bring back, that actually reverting to the old system with many of EoC's balancing concepts would.
It would have been nice to see an even mix of melee/range/mage/hybrid users in PvP minigames like soul wars, instead of a majority of melee only players and some hybridders. The rune cost reduction from EoC would've probably been enough to do that. People not bridding would be doing so just to play casually and bridders were just try hards. At the very least, revert to the old system and add more negative stats as a way to make bridding less extremely effective, but still allow it to be better than using one style.
And yeah, the triangle pretty much wasn't there in PvM.
[quote id=360-361-745-65348630-63-330871569]
THAT'S WHAT JAGEX DID! Ranged armour for melee give lower accuracy...
You just reinvented the wheel...[/quote]
... Obviously they did that in the EoC. And I just told you that could have been done in RS2.
"copy-paste pre-EoC and then try to squeeze EoC with it"
That's exactly the same as using the old system, with/without specific aspects of the EoC (like abilities).
"The point of soaking is to make it depending on armour not stats..."
You're right that it's an oversight to allow players to soak damage without any armour on.
Solution, make the skill-based soaking only apply with armour on.
Each piece of armour gives you access to a portion of your soaking.
"You don't care about balance, you only care about nostalgia."
Despite clearly offering to throw away many aspects of the old system for the new system. Your argument, on the other hand, is becoming quite emotional.
I care about both. It's definitely possible to balance the old system.
I've already admitted various times to what things I only care about for nostalgia and what things I want to see balanced or retain from the EoC.
"In no other way can pre-EoC be incorporated within EoC if everything gets reverted (including how armour works).
I don't understand what you're saying.
I don't see how it's impossible for Jagex to modify their own game.
"Combat triangle will stay."
I never suggested it should be removed...?
"Legacy is not pre-EoC."
I've not stated otherwise...?
"The point of pures was not to work in all PvP minigames, only Wilderness."
I already alluded to that when I mentioned pure vs pure combat and pure vs evenly leveled low level mains while quoting suggestions to make evenly leveled players better or on par with pures.
"Sadly, you ask for armour to be reduced even further and making it even more easy to pure."
I mentioned in the other thread, to make the soaking thing also armour dependent. Thus armour wouldn't be reduced.
"It isn't a simple fix"
And yet here I came, saying that it's a simple fix to keep the 100-990 HP ratio, keep lv.90 items balanced, perform this balance better than pre-EoC soaking+nex armour, go one step towards defeating the purpose of pures, retain the important of special attacks as KO weapons, etc.
And I gave you the math.
The mechanics behind them are definitely not unknown to Jagex. They can always take a suggestion and try to do something with it themselves.
Not to mention, it was possible to approximate your max hit fairly closely (and thus average damage and dps).
Besides, does it matter if old mechanics are unknown if we're replacing aspects of them?
"Anchoring Defence and Constitution is easily fixed"
And my suggestion also attributes to nearly a 50/50 split in terms of importance.
"How will you achieve that? How will you make sure that a pure and a main of the same combat level can fight and the pure will definitely lose?"
I already have.
Pures:
High offense
No defense, unable to equip good armour, get nearly no soaking
Mains:
Normal leveled stats, gain the soaking benefit that I already anchored between HP/armour
In addition to soaking, fix the relationship between accuracy and defence
This way, pures take full unprotected DPS against mains.
Mains will take reduced max/average damage, and be hit less overall.
E.G. move the standard "main vs pure" = "rock vs jello" to occur at ~40 defence instead of 75+. Or in some way that scales between your atk/def ration. I'll try to come up with numbers to supplement that.
Basically, it would be like dragon darts vs a steel 2H.
Here's a couple of things that can be done to fix the old system for both low defence pure abuse and lv.90 items one hit KOing people.
Old CBF:
X = Highest of 1.5 x Magic || 1.5 x Range || Attack+Strength
CBL = ( 1.3*X + Defence + Constitution + (Prayer/2) + (Summoning/2) ) / 4
New CBF:
X = Highest of Ranged || Magic || (Attack + Strength)/2
CBL = ( 2.6*X + Defence + Constitution + (Prayer/2) + (Summoning/2) ) / 4
Pure:
45hp 60atk 99str 1def pray/sum 1
Combat level: 63
drag scim+dclaws+monk robes
Scim max: 228
Claw spec: 211-105-62-52 (430), 211 no spec
450HP, dmg >= 446 gets soaked for 0% (no armour, thus no 15% soak that would apply to only 4 damage anyway)
vs
Main:
50hp 50atk 50str 50def pray/sum 1
Combat level: 57
rune scim + rune armour.
Scim max: 190
500HP, dmg >= 250 gets soaked for 17%
EXAM:
Max hit: 400
99 Atk/Str/Def
Immediate flaw noticed: the static 1-(DEF/100) definitely needs something else. Probably a relation to attack levels.
Soaking needs to scale more with what kind of damage outputs you can attain at specific combat levels.
Let's say your accuracy is effected like this: ATK-(DEF/1.75) and the levels represent a literal %hitrate.
~Owner/Dev of a modded TF2 server community.
60-33=31% hitrate
50-1=49% hitrate
99-57=42% hitrate (99atk vs 99def)
99-1=98% hitrate (99atk vs 1def)
Just for kicks, let's say we multiply that hitrate by a modifier derived from our attack and defence level.
In other words, knowledge/experience of defence contributes to the ability to get around defence.
1+(atk+def/150) (atk/def from the same player, not my attack vs enemy def)
1+((60+1)/175) = 1.35 *31%=41.85% hitrate
1+((50+50)/175)= 1.57 *49%=76.93% hitrate
1+((99+99)/175)= 2.13 *42%=89.46% hitrate
1+((99+99)/175)= 2.13 *98%= cap at a 95% hitrate or something
Average damage at this point, would be something like (Max/2)*hitrate.
Pure: 47.709
Main: 73.084
EXAM: 190
We could also look into minimum hit.
Min = a certain %age of your max determined by your attack vs enemy def, assuming you hit in the first place.
Make defence effect that minimum hit.
Let's say we go for a minimum of 15%
Min = Max * ((Atk-Def+1)/100) + Atk/1000
Pure:
Scim min: 228 * (((60-50+1)/100) + 0.06) = 228*0.17 = 39
Main:
Scim min: 190 * (((50-1+1)/100) + 0.05) = 190*0.55 = 105
400 * (((99-99+1)/100) + 0.099) = 400*0.109 = 44
This way, allowing your defence gap to be larger gives people a huge advantage over you, while more even players don't have to worry nearly as much and will be more evenly matched.
Let's look at average damage after this:
Pure: 41.85% hit 039-118 | 58.15% miss | 078.5 | Weighted average damage: 33
Main: 76.93% hit 105-190 | 23.07% miss | 147.5 | WAD: 113
EXAM: 95.00% hit 044-400 | 05.00% miss | 222.0 | WAD: 211
33 average vs 500 hp is 15 hits.
113 average vs 450 hp is 4 hits.
211 average vs 450 hp is 2.13 hits.
Note: 45+60+99+1 = 205 | 50+50+50+50 = 200 | They should actually be pretty even in combat given this. It's level 63 vs 57.
Unfortunately, it may seem a little ad-hoc to make defence play a role in your accuracy. I'm still trying to come up with different formulas. You could even skip that defense multiplier and adjust the minimum hit thing to help with that and adjust accuracy another way.
But, in argument for making defense affect accuracy:
At level 10 defence you had little knowledge about how to defend yourself but learned how to block some things.
At level 20 defence you have more knowledge about how to defend yourself, and you now know what kind of things got past your previous level 10 defence.
At level 10 accuracy (atk/range/mage) you're bad at aiming darts, channeling magic, or swinging a sword properly to get a good hit on the opponent.
At level 20 accuracy your proficiency with weapons gets better, but not necessarily your knowledge of the workings of defence.
Similarly, in RS2 your magic level helped increase your defense against magic. The difference may or may not be negligible but you could apply it to all 3 classes.
Though even if you have knowledge of certain attack patterns, it doesn't mean your durability is higher.
So pures don't necessarily need to be made terrible against evenly leveled players.
But there needs to be trade-offs, and we want them to not be in favour of uneven stats.
At the same time, the pure's stat total is still higher than the even leveled player, given this scenario. You could take off 5 HP and make the stats the same but it'd be lvl 62 vs 57.
We also want people who are maxed to hit more often, but not make the two hit KO line too apparent.
How high above your level should someone be, for them to completely demolish you? Like 20 level dif is kinda far and 10 level is kinda close.
"Do you wish to undo the accuracy penalty yes or no?"
I'm not sure what the current accuracy penalty is, but I've been working on a way to solve pures in the old system and it involves an accuracy vs defence thing. I'm still working on the math and alternatives however.
"You should/mistakenly see Legacy as X"
I have not claimed to know exactly what legacy will be like. However, I've already given reasons as to why I believe it will be missing some major portions of the good stuff of pre-EoC.
- Jagex not changing armour to get rid of the class attachment to armour was deliberately made to get rid of hybridding
- Jagex not using the stats that had various stats for/against all 3 sections of the triangle ruins hybridding
- Homogenization of the classes
"Throwing away an EoC concept"
Not everything in this thread is necessarily about improving the EoC, but I was going to look into shield stuff in the EoC to see if there's something that could be utilized from that later. If you have a problem with new/fresh ideas, that's your issue.
Additionally, I was going to look more into the strong/weak/neutral armour thing more because for hybridding to be viable it's mostly important for the offense to work than to have defense that perfectly matches your attack style. We could have a cross between the armour weakness and separate weapon offensive that would be similar to pre-EoC hybrid armour.
Basically just remove the class restriction on damage, and make it so individual armour pieces contribute to their classes's offense differently. What I'm saying here would be pretty much the same as pre-EoC, but you get to keep EoC's stat system.
"old system is gone, Legacy isn't pre-EoC, Jagex will not revert everything back"
I've said many times that I already know this. I have never claimed that they will revert things back. Please read before you reply.
"Start from EoC and make it like pre-EoC"
That's almost the same thing as what I'm doing already.
Reverting to pre-EoC and then adding:
EoC new items
EoC new combat formula
EoC food
EoC changing the relation of atk/hp/def/str/mage (especially def)
Is the same as
Keeping EoC and removing:
Abilities
Class homogenization
Class specific armour
Which way do you want me to word it? Balancing the EoC with those 3 things removed is pretty much the same as pre-EoC with EoC concepts.
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